Jenn's Reverie
Wednesday, August 03, 2005
Puff Puff Give?
She say's she had no intentions on cheating, which I know most men right now are saying, "yeah, right." Anyhow, she's hanging out with this friend in her fragile, vulnerable state and he tells her, 'Let's get high.' She agrees and they smoke a joint.
Next thing you know, she's "waking" up and they're engaged in sexual intercourse. (Yeah, I'm being PG, what of it, bitches?) At this point she tears up and doesn't know what her reaction should be.
The nicer of the two DJ's asks, "So you live your life feeling like you've been raped?" She say's that yes, that's how she feels at most times. And throws in the occasional, 'I don't know.' I can sense in her voice that she does feel that as though she was raped. She said that previous to smoking he had tried hitting on her and she told him that she wasn't interested because she had a boyfriend.
Now, Mr. Hardass DJ chimes in with some shit that she smoked simply to lower her inhibitions. The way I take it, is he's saying she wanted to have sex with him, but, was looking for an excuse other than she wanted to. I say he's an asshole. She mentioned that the joint was laced with PCP and he gives his two-cents that if it were true every time someone said they smoked a PCP laced joint the makers of the drug would be millionaires and said the same for "Roofies." She then told him that HE told her it was laced. He still proceeded to basically call her a liar.
Mr. Hardass said that he wouldn't say that the guy is a rapist, and this is where I'm stuck. She did make the decision to smoke, but it was laced, which she did not know. Mr. Hardass basically said in so many words that it was her fault. He even went as far as to say that she was cheating on her boyfriend the moment she snuck out the window. I have more guyfriends than I do girlfriends. He's a dick. And if you don't believe in platonic relationships save it for another post. He also said that her rough life with her mother didn't have much to do with it. Not once did she seem as though she wanted pity and or sympathy. I'm feeling like some fucking consideration would be nice.
I do however agree with Mr. Hardass and wouldn't call him a rapist. I think. Again, this is where I'm stuck. I, myself have been "Roofied." I happened to be with a good group of friends and didn't leave with the asshole, but had I left with him, I'm sure I would have consented to sex. Now, I woke up the next morning not having the slightest clue what-so-ever went on. My heart was beating, I was in a panic, and I didn't know where I was. After a minute of looking around, I was in MY OWN ROOM. I called my friends and couldn't even talk. They told me nothing happened and that basically I was acting like a bit of a violent drunk, which scared them because I'm not a violent person. Not even when I'm plastered. Had something happened, I would have considered it rape. It's hard because, when you are drugged up, it's not like you say no and fight it. You go with it. But, it's not really you. IT IS RAPE.
As for Mr. Hardass, I wonder what secrets lie within that he'd go so far as to blame nothing on the guy.
60 Comments:
I contradicted myself in agreeing with Mr. Hardass in saying that I agree with him and then saying it is rape. Well, I don't agree with him.
I'm just not sure how I feel because she agreed to get high. She didn't know it was laced, but she did get high.
O Jenn. I love you so much for having the courage to speak up. I agree 100% on everything you've said... Right down to the not knowing where the line is drawn.
Being a bit older (and wiser than my younger self) I can clearly see where I've been duped. But still being young and naive, I'm can see where...
Well. Let's just say that I'm not the wisest one out there. And really, who is? That's why there are laws in place, and that's why no means "NO" at any point, for anyone.
I could speak volumes on this subject, but I'll leave it alone for now... I would really like to hear other reasonable adult's view on this.
Thank you very much, Zombie Lama. I agree with you whole-heartedly.
At first glance I thought you were the Zombieslayer and was like, holy wow, he's never left a long comment and I got excited. But then I saw that it was you and thought holy how, the Lama already left me a long comment and I got excited.
great, i didn't think you were going to post a real blog that quick! now i have to get to work on a wedding post lol love ya lady xoxoxox
I don't know if it's the Toronto Edge station you listen to, but if it is, your legal question would be a matter of Ontario law.
I went through a trial, supporting someone who went through the same situation, and according to the Crown, even if the woman took the drugs voluntarily, having sex with someone who is too intoxicated to make the decision to have sex is rape.
This goes so far as to mean that, even if the person agrees to sex, but then sobers somewhat and demands the act stop in coitus, and the other person continues, the other person is guilty of rape.
The reason the rape law is so sticky is, you may remember about ten years ago the Supreme Court ruled that if a man was intoxicated to a point of psychosis (not understanding right from wrong), and he raped a woman, he could not be held liable for the rape. Now, before you fly off the handle, let me flesh out the details.
Jean Cretien's adopted son has a habit of raping women, because he needs a bullet in the back of his thick fucking head. He was facing his THIRD rape charge, the previous two being "handled" by his father's people to avoid damaging the image of the Prime Minister.
The third one couldn't be manipulated, or so they thought. Cretien obviously had better manipulation skills and friends than anyone thought, and thus the insane ruling came about. This sudden ruling basically exonerated Cretien's son of his third rape.
Alan Rock, who is the person who should be running the country right now, was so disgusted at the miscarriage of justice (he was the Attorney General, after all), personally struck down the ruling the next day. This led to an immediate crisis which could easily have led to an immediate revolution because of the whole Quebec/Native/Americano thing.
Rock didn't care, his mind was on Justice as an actual value not to be fucking destroyed by a bunch of psychopathic politicians.
Rock was rewarded for protecting the rights of millions of women by being fired, and stuck in a dead-end portfolio which guaranteed he would never become PM.
As a foot note, Cretien's son was arrested and charged with is FOURTH and FIFTH rapes, and even though Daddy pulled out all the stops, actually spent about THREE MONTHS in prison for them. Let me reiterate that this man needs a full-metal-jacket enema in the head.
Let me sum up. She agreed to get high, which is fine, but if the dope was laced with angel dust, the guy was guilty of administering a noxious substance (poisoning). It doesn't matter if she agreed to smoke the dope, her intent was to ingest marijuana, not PCP.
It's like when you got roofed. You agreed to drink whatever drink it was in, not to ingest the roofies. It's the same principle, and the same crime.
The DJ has a constitutional right to be an asshole and antagonise victims of these fucking scumbag rapists, but in the same way, victims of crime have a way to fight back.
The Criminal Compensation system (info available at your local courthouse) is a legal organisation which compensates victims of crimes, whether or not the defendant was convicted. Because the law is an ass (especially in Canada where monarchal rule remains), those who are obviously guilty often go free.
Criminal Compensation is sort of like the civil lawsuit phase which sacked OJ after the criminal courts found him innocent. A broader acceptance of different kinds of evidence is allowed, and the Board determines whether, on the balance of probabilities, the crime probably took place.
They then can choose to award compensation to victims, and have the right to pursue perpetrators for repayment.
The case I was involved in, which was an absolutely heart-rending situation where the defense lawyer basically ridiculed, taunted, antagonised and screamed at the victim, saw the defendant walk free of the crime of rape.
I found out afterward most of the jurors wanted to convict, they understood that the man was guilty of rape, but a few redneck cocksuckers basically threatened, harassed, and "mentally" raped the female jurors, and treated the whole thing as a joke.
The "leader" of these assholes said he'd been in the defendant's shoes a lot, having drunk women sleep with him and "crying" rape afterward. It was basically a case of having rapists judge one of their own, so it went to shit.
She was, however, treated extremely well by the Criminal Compensation board, and when the cocky defendant tried his backwood shit in Toronto, they cut him off at the knees. After awarding compensation to the victim, they held him to repayment, and the last I heard he was a walking joke in his city.
The freedom you enjoy is not one you have to take at your own risk. You have the right to be protected from these predators, and they have a legal obligation not to stack the deck in their favour. If they can't seduce a woman with wit, charm, love and affection, they don't deserve sex.
That is the Law.
Be well, my sweet.
Moral of the story is don't smoke joints laced with PCP. I'd say it isn't rape. The chick got her pussy wet and spread her legs and got fucked, end of story. It's all on her. I hate how women use the I was drunk or high excuse, they just use that excuse to save face after they fucked somebody and feel some remorse about it the next day.....
My jury is out on whether or not that was rape, none of us know, sometimes people do something they regret and then convince themselves that something else happened to cause it instead of taking the responsibility for themselves. As far as the platonic relationships,,, BULLSHIT. Every guy out there who claims to be "just friends" with a girl is a pussy and a liar, any hot girl who thinks a guy "just wants to be friends, nothing more" is either stupid or painfully naive. Every guy out there who claims to "just be friends" with a good looking girl is full of crap and undoubtedly wants to rail her til her cooter falls apart, me included. Jenn, I just want to be friends with you OK?
nothing bad happened in UNLV's past as far as rape goes. I always tape everything so there is vide evidance that everything in consensual....Plus if any of the chicks I have banged become famous I can always sell the tape. it's a win win situation
Pikkel speaks the truth. Jenn the reason you have alot of guy friends is because you are hot and they want to bang you. They just haven't figured out how to get in your pants and they figure that by hanging around and being friends is that you will someday realize that you want to give them some pussy. You don't see fat nasty chicks with lots of guy friends. Men put women into 2 catagories those we want to bang and those we don't want to bang
Hahah UNLV is right when it comes to guy "friends." Most (most) guys usually have close, good looking, girl friends for that one instance, that one chance, that on a good day they will sleep with that friend. All guys know this and the majority of nieve girls that ignore this usually are shocked when the moves are placed on them. "We're just friends!"
The guy knows this but the guy also wants some ass. Having fine women around is a win/win in most situations due to a) that possibility and b) attractive ppl attract other attractive ppl
Now me, I'm not like this. Not anymore. I have a daughter and have penciled in a few years of jail time defending her by the time she is done with highschool. Hopefully not, but I will if necessary.
Moral of the story: Listen to your parents, respect boundaries and don't do drugs. If you aren't looking for trouble chances are you won't find it. This coming from a guy that didn't drink alcohol until I was 21 yet had a felony and a kid by age 17.
Stick to Belvedere and Tonic, its never done me wrong, kids.
Ok, I have to say that we can't judge her "friend" because we are only hearing one side of the story. If it happened, it's a terrible thing. But, here's something else to consider: They were both smoking the laced pot. Meaning that they both were under the effects of it and may have had lapses in judgement.
When I think about it, there are several women that I've slept with that were somewhat intoxicated at the time and didn't remember too much of it. I tend to have had a lot of fun telling them that they did things that would make them hurl. But, it does make you think that there could be a point where one of them could have filed charges... so there is a weird line there. Maybe it's drawn between them positioning themselves or you having to hold them upright.
Also, I do think that Mr. Hardass DJ actually may have been doing a good job. He may have been playing 'devil's advocate' and he was persuasive enough to anger you. We wouldn't have gotten this post otherwise. B)
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Im sure we've all been high.
I smoked the stuff with girls and guys, Im sure I didnt smoke the stuff to have sex with them, I smoked it for the simple reason of:
GETTING HIGH.
She was no doubt the same.
The only problem is, there are assholes in this world, Mr Hardass being ONE very good example, and drug-dealing-raping-boy being another.
To me, the girl is innocent, it was not consentual sex, therefore in my opinion, it can only be considered rape...
I HATE ASSHOLES.
Hey, those of you are on my Hardass links for a reason. I digress.
I know, Linny! But yeah, UNLV, I can't ever tell when he's serious or not. As for most of them.
And you can call them, girl! Most people don't stop to think that they may just be blowing shit out their ass. Even if they're not, you know?
Anyhow, if I thought it'd be worth the argument I would have said they all fucking forgot the part where SHE DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS LACED. But they're just gonna come at me with, 'she should know who she's with' or 'she should know what she's smoking' or 'she shouldn't have got high at all' and 'her fucked up childhood has nothing to do with it.' Blah, blah, I aint heard a word you said, hibbidy hoo blah!
Anyhow, yours and Col. Dr.'s comments were an A+!
Oh, and they didn't read the part where I said to save the platonic relationship comments for another post. Damn you boys!! Sheesh. You're all grounded. Go to your rooms!
Oh yeah, anonymous, you're a douche.
As a guy I have always had a strict rule that if I don't think they would do something when they are sober I certainly won't try it when they are drunk\stoned. Anyone who would "take it whenever they can get it" like that is a prick.
I have had one or two situations where I was so pissed I didn't know what was going on myself and I've woken up in bed with someone and neither of us knew what the hell had happened but I have turned down advances from women several times if I felt it was something that they would regret or even worse feel that I had taken advantage of them. I have to say a few times it has been the hardest thing I have ever done but when it comes down to it I've always managed to maintain my own self control.
Maybe I am different to a lot of other guys in this sense because I was abused when I was younger but I like to think that it is more to do with my personality.
Late to the party - again!
Anyway, I am reminded of the little exchange in the movie Animal House, when the Devil and Angel are arguing on either side of the guy's head as he looks at a passed out babe -
"Fuck her now, you'll never get another chance!" vs. "It's not the right thing to do."
Many guys relate to that tale and laugh during that scene because of it. I was only in that situation once, and stopped before things got out of hand (or even in hand ;p).
Given the story as presented, I would say he raped her. But he probably didn't think of it as such and would be horrified to think it now.
I wonder why God only gave men enough blood for one head to work at a time?
If I ever need to prove my point about mandatory sterilization, I'll just send them to this post.
Some of you guys say that you doubt women are on the level when they claim to have been sexually assaulted, but in the next breath you admit to doing it yourselves... Of course you wouldn't think there is anything wrong with behaving that way. All's fair when you want to get laid, ey?
I'm just thankful that I know for a fact that all men are not like you.
Linny: I don't know you buddy, but right now, you're my hero. Thank you (and your daughter) for all the information. Again, I just wish I had known some of that stuff when I was younger. I still think that there is some fuzz in that line, but I can see now that the fuzz is more in my head, and not in the law. :o)
Jesus Christ people-what did I miss?
Listen-if you CHOOSE to do drugs EVER-and trust me it is my place to say this as a recovered narcotic addict-then YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CONSEQUENCES PERIOD.
No, that's not harst at all. Yes the guy was a fucking loser and should get his ass beat BUT she shouldn't be doing drugs ESPECIALLY at 14 God Damn years old.
Am I saying "serves her right"? NO-but I am saying she can't put herself in that situation and expect a penis to behave himself.
Women put themselves in situations they think they can handle and they can't. Jenn-you were lucky - you were with a large group of good friends and even though you were getting drunk-which was your choice-you knew they wouldn't let you do anything stupid.
I just don't know what else to say about this. Do I feel bad for her getting raped? Yes-I've been date raped so I do feel bad for that somewhat. However, I was sober when it happened and she wasn't so I am inclined to not feel as sorry for her as someone who's been in my position and was simply "muscled" over by a guy.
I trust men about as far as I can throw them.
HARST=HARSH
/agree with Rae
Rae, you talk about taking responsibility when we make bad choices, but isn't it also our responsibility to report a possible predator?
I don't know about you, but I would hate to think of who the next victim may be...
In my case, it was my baby sister.
Taking responsibility is a good thing, but be careful not to let your guilt cloud your judgment.
If I get off the subway in Harlem in the middle of the night, "he" might be a mugger, but I am a dumb asshole.
If I get in the car with a drunk driver, he might be convicted of negligent homicide, but I am a dumb asshole.
If she sneaks out to be with a guy who previously hit on her & gets high (not knowing of the PCP - not sure how she discovered that fact), he may or may not be a rapist, but she's a dumb asshole.
You have to think BEFORE you put yourself into a bad situation. She never should have been there. I think the guy is a scum bag in this story, but for sure some women do (Oops, I got drunk) so they can fuck around & "not mean it" later on.
It's an all around bad story. I hope your commute home was filled with music.
Well that makes a lot of sense, Rat in a Cage. What? We're suppose to assume that men can't control themselves and should therefor never go to a bar, or out at night, or anywhere for that matter, without also assuming that we'll be raped? Why shouldn't we be allowed to enjoy (in relative safety) the same freedoms as you?
Can't you see that by defending that type of behavior, you're also condoning it?
Trust me, most adult women know what the dangers are, and we try to compensate, but it's not enough because there are those that feel they have the right. And they feel they have the right because society is telling them that it's OK.
I do agree however, that there are some chicks that will cry victim when they're not, and that pisses me off just as much because it lessens the credibility of the ones who actually are. But I guarantee that while there are a few of them, there are more that have been victimized, and never say a word.
Argh. This is a tough one to call.
Legally, I have no idea if it would be called rape or not. It definitely was not consensual sex. But was it forceable rape by the letter of the law? I don't know.
This girl's self-esteem is shot, so she's not sticking up for herself enough. I don't know if we're getting the whole story. I do know one thing that I've known girls like this and they've been known to sugar coat the story more than blame the perpetrator. So I think it's safe to say where she'd err.
I just know one thing, if a guy took advantage of my daughter while she was out, they'd find his bruised and broken body floating in the ocean. Junior's almost getting old enough to start talking more about sex and one thing I will point out is that not only does no mean no, but it is very wrong to take advantage of a girl who is not in the right mind. This is very wrong.
You know in Texas, it used to be common for a man to pay for his son's first. You all may laugh and call me old-fashioned, but an older whore can show a young man how it should and should not be done. I wish I went that route then the teenage years wouldn't have been so awkward when it came to sexuality.
Oh, one thing I wanted to add. Please don't take this as blame the victim, but she should have never put herself in that situation too. No, I'm not taking anything away from what he did, but what she did was stupid.
/agree with RT @ 6:40 and 6:54
/disagree with RT @ 9:07
/agree with rat in a cage
RT I think your emotions are getting the best of you in this situation especially when the personal breaches the barriers of the topic. Take these two lines, probably the most important of his comment:
"You have to think BEFORE you put yourself into a bad situation. She never should have been there."
No where in his post is he talking about a normal night out at the bar, he is talking about bad situations, sneaking out the house at a young age and getting high - way different than what you are speaking of.
Making sure you have a grip on the situation that you are in is most important in order to avoid bad times. There is no need to walk around with the fear of being raped but if one doesn't walk around without preventative measures, ie. good friends and a clear head then its that much easier to fall victim. Mind you, that absolves NOTHING on the charges of responsibility and repercussions to that of the assaulter. Fuck that guy. He's an asshat and if faced with the charges that shoulda been pressed on him he would probably be labeled and punished accordingly.
Half the reason I never drank growing up had to do with my parents being heavy drinkers. The other half had to do with being the "reality check" for my friends that would get drunk and high non stop. I never needed that bullshit to have a good time, plus I had to look out for my friends. Had I not been there dozens of times over there would have been a lot more bad experiences growing up.
All rat in a cage is saying is to keep your head on straight. Once perception and brain cells are compromised it becomes that much more challenging to stay safe. Especially without honest ppl lookin out for you.
I have to go with Linny and RT after all the debate.
Rae, I don't think women put themselves in positions they can't handle. It's not fair to say that she thought "Hey, I think I wanna be date raped tonight. Sounds like a plan." She thought she was with a friend. She trusted him.
We're also forgetting that she was just 14. At 14 most of us were all stupid in some sense. I mean, think back.
Even if she DID get high, it was laced, and he knew what he was doing.
I put myself in a position everytime I leave my house. Everytime I go to a club. Everytime I go on a date. Whether I'm sober or drunk. It's not about where I put myself but who I put myself around. And you just don't know who is capable. EVER. Does this mean I shouldn't meet people?
My rule of thumb is getting to know someone first. I meet a guy while I'm out it'll be a few more meetings in public before he can pick me up at home.
So say I'm out one night after meeting a guy and having dated him for a while. I now trust him and I decide I wanna catch a buzz, or hell, smoke a joint. He slips me something or the joint's laced. We have sex. I'm in no state to consent. He raped me. Period.
I put myself in that position? I don't think so. I shouldn't have drank or smoked the joint? Well, I shouldn't have trusted him, but I did.
Yes, we can take precautions, but she thought it was her friend. THOUGHT. We all THINK.
Northe is right. We shouldn't have to live our lives in fear. I shouldn't have to worry about leaving my house at four in the morning to come to work like I did tonight, but I do. If something happened on my way to work it'd be sad because 'She was a single mother with a full-time job working for the Sheriff's Department.' Had it been on my way to a club with some friends, it'd be 'She was going to get drunk with some friends. Did she have it coming?' It's all how people want to SEE things. Which is obviously the case here.
Either way, she was violated. There is no justification for the little fucker. Whether he muscled her over, or laced her to make it easier on him. She didn't deserve it nor does she or any other deserve to be treated as though they asked for it because 'they put themselves in that position.'
If I live my life in fear, I fear that I will not live life.
I've neglected to comment because basically I don't believe in absolute value judgements. (Hard to quantify my actual position in this debate & I couldn't be bothered)
That said, I'm pretty impressed @ the general lack of flaming (sans Jenns flare @ the anony-douche)
Go Jenn's fans!
It's a term of endearment, douche.
Then you too are a doche M'lady.
Yo mama!
RT,
I wasn't condoning. If I knew this girl, he'd be 6 feet under already. I think he should have his nuts cut off to prevent this episode from happening again. All I meant was she was stupid to get into this spot, not that he was without blame. IF you & she couldn't see that coming, you both should stay home & not enjoy the same freedoms.
Jon, she didn't know what spot she was getting in. It's like I said, she trusted him. He betrayed her trust.
How is anyone to know when their trust will be betrayed?
I must say... I'm a man. Not your average but you can't escape what you are, ya heard. Any man who has to get a girl stoned or what have you is major "puss" or as the Committee would say "choach." We're talkin bout a boy here right. Kid was probably so horny his sock just couldn't get the job done anymore. Hopefully he'll regret it the rest of his life and won't become one of the many COCK roaches walkin the Earth. As far as the DJs, they're only looking for ratings. She agreed to get high n didn't know it was laced... Sad. She'll probably never get high again. I digress. Just goes to show even the best of friends have tricks up their sleeves and their own agendas. Watch ya back bitches...
Wouldn't go as far as callin it rape but he did take advantage of her...
I'll take a slightly different slant here. I think the problem with where to draw the line is one of language. I think most people can find a distinct difference from the person who violently attacks a stranger in the park at night and a "friend" who uses drugs or other methods(more on this later) to take advantage of someone, BUT there is really only one word to describe it: RAPE. It's confusing, as if we only had one word to describe both an apple and an orange.
This confusion may serve a good purpose, ie less people will commit the "less evil" act because of the meaning of the word that describes it. I can't quantify that effect but its certainly used with other words.
Here's another interesting twist to consider:
Recently there has been a few stories of female teachers who have allegedly had'realtions' with their much younger male students. Most people would call this "molestation", but how different is this from "date rape" or "roofie rape", can the effects of teenage male hormones in the presence of an older, attractive, presumably naked woman be considered a 'drug' of sorts that would inhibit their ability to properly consent? Because the opinion on talk radio is that these boys are "lucky".
One more thing briefly:
Its a shame that our culture has devolved into such a state that someone having a drink or smoking a joint would automatically be putting themselves in a "bad position". If she did that alone in her room, there is no "bad position", it exists outside of her, therefor, in a more ideal world she could not possibly share in even the slightest bit of the fault. This is the kind of world we should be working to live in.
Prufr0ck, Exactly, committing the "less evil." Taking advantage of rather than rape.
mainly to prufr0ck @ 7:44AM
I think you gotta put things into perspective. Everyone is looking at this situation as something that can happen to them. This isn't us, we are adults now, this is a fourteen year old trying to act like an adult. Time changed them from us somewhere along the line. Its a bad frikkin situation no matter which way you cut it. Maybe I am an asshat for thinking this way but being fourteen and sneaking out to get high is a bad situation no matter which way things are cut. What good can come of it?
Fifty times over, again, so I am not misinterpreted. Fuck that guy, fuck that guy, fuck that guy, he'd be done deal in my book, period.
prufr0ck said, "Its a shame that our culture has devolved into such a state that someone having a drink or smoking a joint would automatically be putting themselves in a "bad position."
My take on it is, Its a shame that our culture has devolved into such a state where fourteen year olds feel independent and grown up enuff to think that they can handle the responsibility that comes with drinking and drugs and that punk ass boys would take advantage of that kind of situation.
It sickens me that my 10 year old daughter is at risk to crap like this. It's not happening on my watch tho, no chance.
Jenn, your top ten list on Rico's blog had me cracking up. Youre a funny girl. Email me sometime. The address is on my profile. Holla!
Did the girl leave her phone number?
Wow, I'm way behind.
I can't judge the situation because I don't find her credible. I don't buy the "blackout" story. When I hear that, it tells me, "Well, I got carried away, and we started doing it, and then halfway through I felt bad and wanted to stop."
Which is OK. Tell him to stop. (He'll be pissed, but if he is anything other than a piece of shit, he'll stop.) She fucked up. Did her bad lifestyle contribute? Sure, but there are lots of other people with worse upbringings that didn't do things this stupid. She's making excuses. She needs to stop.
And one thing I noticed is that even when she did "wake up" she didn't say anything about telling him to stop then.
Jenn, you hit it right on. Great post.
And also? I'd like to see the big talkin' boys' reaction if the girl on the phone was their sister/daughter/etc. THEN we'll see where semantics gets us and whether they stand by the notion that, and I'm paraphrasing here, she deserved it. Because I'm thinking it'd be less of that and more of them going out and kicking the ass of the kid who was "just being a guy."
/nod Amber
I think all that needs to be said about this post has been said already...now that I'm the 70th comment!!!! Holy crap Jenn!
~Eyes
Well then. I don't think I could have said it any better than Jenn.
But I would like to add:
Yes Northe (and everyone else who took the attitude,) I am taking it personally, because Hello! Been there, done that. The details may have been different, but the emotional trauma is the same. When you talk about how stupid she was, you're also saying how stupid I was. And I don't think I was any more so than anyone else my age, male or female.
Now, some of you may have had the perfect life, and you may think you were the perfect kid, and you may feel that you have every right to judge (and while you believe you're judging this situation, I tend to disagree. There are far too few details to judge it either way. What we're actually judging is that type of situation in general). So go ahead, judge all you want. That's your prerogative. Just don't expect me to sit idly by and take it.
Rae: I hope you're hearing this. You may have been told that it was because of your drug use that you were raped, but the responsibility was not yours alone. And more importantly, please don't think that just because you've given up the drugs that it will never happen to you again. I wasn't doing drugs, and I wasn't anywhere where I shouldn't have been when I was sexually assaulted. But, and this is where I want you to listen carefully, I was told the same kind of crap that they told you. Even though I was eleven, and playing in my own back yard, I shouldn't have been wearing those shorts, and that shirt, and doing somersaults and being so provoking. It may sound like totally different situations, but it's all merely a way for them to justify their deviant behavior and put the blame on you.
That, and what Jenn has already said may help you understand why I was so angry with what Rat in a Cage said. To me, and to a lot of other women, any situation is a potentially dangerous situation. I don't necessary expect you to understand that until it's happened to you (which it probably never will, and I'm sure you know that), but I wouldn't feel comfortable with myself if I didn't at least try to help you understand.
We could battle on this forever. I get your point & AM NOT arguing it, but I do not think you get mine. Anyway, I will close out my discussion with the hope that none of you ever find yourself in that woman's spot.
Gonna bow outta this like rat in a cage just did cuz I'm feeling the same way.
RT, I hope I didn't offend you. There was nothing I said that implied the girl, and especially you, as being stupid. I'd say re-read my posts but no biggie if it really is no biggie. Gonna leave it at that.
Have a good weekend ppl.
Come on Hula belly, you never succesfully snuck out of the house? I did all the time. Parents are parents, not guard dogs.
As for the rape or no rape. Who knows? I don't. I can honestly say that if you have two people who are equally incapacitated how come only one of them gets held accountable for what happens? Doesn't seem fair to me but then this is the legal system we are talking about. Fairness isn't involved.
Northe, Rat (and everyone else out there) I do sincerely hope there are no hard feelings. I just want to let you know that I do appreciate your honesty. It gives me something to think about. I just hope I did the same for you.
And just for the record:
As for the actual case that Jenn presented us, I tend to side with those of you aren't necessarily blaming the boy. There is no way of knowing if he had bad intentions going into the situation. You have to remember, he was only 14 too. He may not have know what the drugs would do to him, or her. I don't think that's the case in most adults, but with this 14 year old boy, you just can't tell.
In an ideal situation, one or both of the kids would have talked to their parents about this, and their parents would have gotten together and tried to mesh it out, and then find proper counseling to help them deal with the problem at hand. Obviously, neither kid did so, resulting in long term emotional trauma.
I can't help but to think (and it saddens me to think) that neither kid did so because they were too afraid of what their parents would say or do to them.
That being said! What do you say we spark up the conversation about "platonic friendships"??? We're really close to having 100 comments on this one post...
I say we go for it! :D
RT-NO ONE told me anything like my drug use caused my date rape. They weren't even connected-I was SOBER when it happened and I know it can happen to me at anytime. That is why I CHOOSE to watch how fucked up I get in mixed company.
Jenn-Listen-I'm not saying don't go out and drink and meet people but KNOW that with every drink you take or every drug you do you are INCREASING your chances of being a victim. SURE-it can happen at anytime but you have to look at the likelyhood of it happening to you in a crowded bar at 1am when you are drunk as opposed to you being sober and walking to the corner store at noon.
I'm just saying people -- this has a lot of people to blame here-first her parents for not getting through to her-then her for choosing to engage in drugs-then the fucking guy for being a fucking predator.
What we have to realize is that we cannot completely control circumstances in our lives BUT we are more equiped to deal with them sober and as an adult.
I am not entirely saying it is her fault-BUT had she known not to trust a fucking penis-especially one that hit on her before-she may have thought twice about smoking fucking weed.
"It was laced"- so fucking what. When you buy or partake in drugs-you can NEVER know when it is laced. I've seen people get bad X and die from it-whose fault is that-only the drug dealer who sold them the bad shit? Or do we blame the druggie as well for being a fucking druggie?
I don't feel as though anything I did caused my rape besides the fact that I LET myself be alone with I guy I was on a third date with-at a party where he was drunk-and there was NO WAY I could have physically fended him off. It was partially my fault for being too trusting and making myself that vulnerable.
As for my drug use-I made A TON of bad decisions while I was high. I don't care what ANYONE says I KNOW had I not been fucked up-some of that shit wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have been hanging with the people I was hanging with or going to the places I went which is how/where the shit went down.
It's this simple people:
Teach your children that these days the only person they can trust is themselves-and even that fails some of the time.
Teach your daughters that men think with their penis and women think mostly with their hearts.
Teach your children self-defense-daughters especially.
Teach you children to respect themselves and the opposite sex-sons especially.
Teach your children that drugs WILL cause you to have regrets-use examples of your own past in an appropriate manner-they need to know it's real and not just what thier parents tell them.
~Dr. Rae
I'm sorry Rae, I misunderstood what you were saying.
I'm sorry, Rae, but my heart and soul refuse to let me believe that any of that was your fault in any way, shape or form.
No, it's not 'cause you fucked up and trusted a man with a penis, or a man in general. Had it not been you, it'd have been any girl who'd have been with him that night. It was HIS penis to control, not yours.
HE did not control himself. HE put you in a position. HE is the stupid motherfucker who is at fault 200%.
If it were your fault in any sense of the way, then we, as women are ALWAYS in that position. It's as I said, everytime we walk out that door and even when we don't.
There was no way of you controling what happened.
It doesn't matter if it was only your first, third or tenth date, he had it in him. If women are to believe that it is their fault when something like that happens then it's our fault everytime we meet a man and try to make something of it.
Again, I'm sorry for having an opinion for and about something that I've not experienced, but everything in me say's it wasn't your fault.
If indeed a girl is raped, it is never her fault. I don't care the circumstance.
Rae, I am sorry you had to experience what you did, but thank you for making the point I was trying to make in a more forthright manner. I was simply trying to convey your message without being an unsympethic jerk about her circumstance.
I have encuraged the ex to have her kids (daughter especially) in tae kwon do for years so she (daughter) knows better how to handle herself in a bad situation. I also have a bat nearby to help out.
I'm not sure you'd want to air your laundry, but your message could be very helpful to tennage girls. I don't know how you could get it across, but I wonder if you have thought of speaking to them in groups?
I have considered it-but it's hard for me to speak about it in person. Writing about it is one thing-you can't see me cry online-ya know?
The hardest part about all of it is on my 2nd date with the guy-the date before he raped me-I got a tatoo. It has nothing to do with him-design wise-but it is a scar no different than the emotional one left behind.
Jenn-everyone for that matter. I just feel as though we as women need to be trained in self-defense. It's unfortunate but it's the truth. We can never be safe-safety is an illusion-but we can be prepared as best as possible.
OK you guys, can I say one last thing? (I know I said I was out of it, but...)
The point that Jenn, and I, and so many others (or at least I) are trying to make is this:
Your children will not even come to you if you tell them, and/or show them by your attitude (which is a BIGGIE!) that bad things only happen to them if they do bad/irresponsible things. Anything... ANYTHING can be construed as bad/irresponsible when you're a youngster who doesn't know the difference.
I've read and re-read these post, and I keep coming back to the same thing. You're saying that by doing drugs, and/or sneaking out of the house, you're putting yourself in a bad position. Point blank, you're doing something bad.
You assume that kids will be able to tell the difference between bad and normal. You assume that what you say should be law, even though you can't back it up with personal experience. You're assuming that they're more mature than they actually are.
Think of it this way, you're telling them about the drugs and running around, their friends are telling them about being 'a tease'. They hear on the internet and from their friends about "becoming a woman". In contradiction, they hear that men are only a penis/women are only a pussy, but when you're a teenager in love... That's a lot of information for a young mind to digest! The parental/peer pressure is very great.
Whose advice do you want them to listen to? Their friends are accepting through every step of the way, you are being judgmental.
You can teach them self defense (btw, self defense can NOT always protect you from someone who is bigger and better trained than you), you can show them all the support after the fact, but you can only help them truly understand what has happened to them (and trust me, it Will happen to them, in one form or another) if you understand it yourself.
I'm not mad, I'm not offended by anything you guys (and gals) have said. This is merely a desperate plea for those of you who hold these strong opinions to at least try to rethink what you've been taught. It's an old opinion that simply does not work. Those of us who are messed up now, as adults, are living proof.
I'm not saying that my way is the right way, mind you. I'm just suggesting that if you move outside of that box, you may be able to see it a little more clearly, and maybe find a way that does work.
PS: Jenn, I have to say it, again... You Rock for bring up this subject! I know it's tough, and it's emotional, but if through it all we can shed some light and save even one person from the emotional trauma of rape/sexual assault... It's worth it!
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